How Wyoming Real Estate Prices Exploded as Out-of-State Investors Poured
Show summary
In this conversation, Jon Puls, a real estate entrepreneur from Cheyenne, Wyoming, discusses the current state of the real estate market in Cheyenne, the opportunities for investors, the impact of out-of-state buyers, and the potential of short-term rentals. He emphasizes the importance of understanding the local market dynamics and suggests various acquisition strategies for new investors. Jon also shares insights on the tourism aspect of Cheyenne and how it influences the rental market, particularly during events like Cheyenne Frontier Days.
Key takeaways
- Cheyenne, Wyoming home prices have jumped sharply: Jon Puls bought his 3-bed/1-bath, 1,000 sq ft home five years ago for $120,000; it's now valued around $289,000-$300,000.
- A fourplex apartment property in Cheyenne currently runs around $525,000.
- In Wyoming, anything fourplex or smaller is classified residential (eligible for VA loans), while anything larger than a fourplex is considered commercial.
- Veterans can use a VA loan to buy a fourplex, live in one unit, and use the rental income from the other units to help qualify and build equity.
- Out-of-state buyers, especially from Colorado and California, are driving up prices in Cheyenne; Wyoming has no state income tax, and California sellers bring exponentially more buying power than local incomes.
- Two large meta (data) centers moving into the area are pushing up population, rents, and prices.
- Short-term rentals outperform long-term rentals in Cheyenne due to Air Force personnel (F.E. Warren Air Force Base), a regional hospital with traveling nurses, and Cheyenne Frontier Days, a 100+ year old rodeo event that can double or triple the city's population and finance a rental property for months in a single week.
- For acquisitions, Jon recommends starting with a local realtor, driving the town (which takes only 15-20 minutes to cross), talking to people at coffee shops, and checking the city tax department for abandoned properties or back taxes owed as an acquisition source.
- The local government is loosening restrictions on renting out mother-in-law units, previously limited to family only, which opens new small-scale rental opportunities.
- Owner/seller financing deals are happening in Cheyenne, though Jon describes that side of the market as 'tough'; he personally acquired a fourplex through an owner-finance deal.
About the guest
Jon Puls is a real estate entrepreneur, military veteran, and owner of EMP Rentals based in Cheyenne, Wyoming. He also runs an event company called EMP 2020 (Events Marketing Promoting 2020) that works with the local community college on event rentals. He has experience in single-family rentals and small multifamily (fourplex) investing, including a fourplex acquired through an owner-financing deal.
Listen to the audio
“They claim that we have a housing shortage in Cheyenne to be honest with you. But it's not a matter of a housing shortage. It's a money shortage.”
Jon Puls
“So as long as it's a fourplex or smaller in the state of Wyoming, it's considered residential. Anything over fourplex of apartments is considered commercial.”
Jon Puls
“The turnover in that one week can almost finance some places for like three months.”
Jon Puls
Questions answered in this episode
What is the average home price in Cheyenne, Wyoming right now?
Jon Puls says prices have skyrocketed. His own 3-bedroom, 1-bath, 1,000 sq ft home, bought five years ago for $120,000, is now valued around $289,000-$300,000. A fourplex apartment building currently sells for around $525,000.
Why are out-of-state investors driving up prices in Cheyenne?
Jon Puls notes a lot of buyers are coming from Colorado and California. California sellers bring much larger sums relative to local incomes, and Wyoming has no state income tax, making it attractive. This extra buying power is pushing local prices up and making it harder for existing local investors to compete.
Is Cheyenne a good market for short-term rentals?
Yes, according to Jon Puls. Demand comes from the Air Force base (F.E. Warren), a regional hospital that brings in traveling nurses, and Cheyenne Frontier Days, the oldest outdoor rodeo in the world, which can double or triple the city's population for a week and generate enough income to cover months of expenses.
What's the best way to find investment properties in Cheyenne?
Jon Puls recommends starting with a local realtor since most properties go through the MLS, but also suggests driving around the town (which takes only 15-20 minutes to cross), talking to locals at coffee shops for leads on off-market deals, and checking the city tax department for abandoned properties or properties with back taxes owed.
Can veterans use small multifamily properties to get into real estate investing?
Yes. Jon Puls explains that in Wyoming, fourplexes or smaller are considered residential, making them eligible for VA loans. Veterans can buy a fourplex, live in one unit, and count the rental income from the other units, which is a common path for veterans to start investing.
Resources and links
Full transcript
Jon Puls (00:00)
They claim that we have a, ⁓ housing shortage in Cheyenne to be honest with you. ⁓ but it’s not a matter of a housing shorty. It’s a money shortage. ⁓
What they’re not taking into effect is the cost. Like I said, the costs have gone so high that a basic family can’t buy a home. Now investors, that’s a whole nother story.
Dylan Silver (00:17)
Yeah.
Hey folks, welcome back to the show. Today’s guest, Jon Puls out of Cheyenne, Wyoming is the owner of EMP Rentals. He’s an entrepreneur, military veteran and real estate operator. Jon, thanks for taking the time today.
Jon Puls (02:08)
Good morning. Looking forward to it.
Dylan Silver (02:11)
It’s great to have you
on. Yeah, man, it’s great. It’s great to have you on here. I’ve actually not been to Cheyenne. ⁓ Shame on me. But one of beautiful things about real estate is you meet people who are doing deals everywhere in the country. So for myself and our audience who have maybe never been to Cheyenne or are not familiar with the area, what’s the market like out there? And then maybe if you can inform us, like what’s the average price of a home going?
Jon Puls (02:37)
Well, so Cheyenne has been one of those that got hit with the market value. It’s weird here because we’re so close to Colorado and we’re only a hundred miles from Denver. So our market fluctuates like mad, but lately it has skyrocketed in cost and value. So for instance, I bought my house five years ago for $120,000.
It was a it’s a three bedroom, one bath, simple little place, you know, 1000 square feet. And today it’s going for 289, 300,000. It’s and the market here is ridiculous. I mean, you could buy a fourplex of apartments right now in town, probably for around 525.
Dylan Silver (03:11)
Wow. Okay, so that’s good of you.
So is there a big contingency of mom and pop investors out there? people actively, is there a big real community out there? What’s the energy like surrounding real estate investing?
Jon Puls (03:35)
Well, so surrounding real estate investing, it’s very driven here. There’s, we do kind of have an overrun of realtors. So, because there’s not a whole lot of other jobs going on. ⁓ We did have just ⁓ recently two giant meta centers move into town. So that’s driving the rates up and the people up and the population up. You know how it is with more people come more money. So that’s, that’s kind of driving the prices in the area. ⁓ When it comes to investing with mom and pops,
Dylan Silver (03:58)
Yeah.
Jon Puls (04:05)
⁓ There’s plenty of opportunity here for things like that. The local government is trying to change a few things so you can have mother-in-law homes and you can rent them openly without having to have any stipulations on that because before you could only have family in there. Now they’re allowing for renters ⁓ because we have a small college here, Laramie County Community College. They do a lot of work with me on the event rental side of my companies. ⁓
They’ve got a lot of new students coming in and they’ve been growing ⁓ quite a lot every year. I mean, it’s with the people coming in, there are spaces and places. A lot of people are looking to retire right now. Our community is an older community. It is an air force community as well, because we have F.E. Moore and air force base. So I mean, if you’re just looking for single homes to flip or buy or rent, there’s plenty for sale here. The market’s decent.
⁓ The only thing that I can say is check your realtor, check their credentials, and ⁓ make sure you’re looking into every aspect of the home before you actually settle down to paperwork.
Dylan Silver (06:03)
Do you see a lot of new build and ground up construction happening out there? Are there subdivisions being put up or are you seeing more, you know, fix and flip and rehabbing older properties?
Jon Puls (06:14)
No,
we’re, seeing an, an extreme boom in the, apartment complex kind of thing. And we’re talking to three and four and five level, you know, a hundred units or bigger, you know, we’ve got a lot of that going on right now.
claim that we have a, ⁓ housing shortage in Cheyenne to be honest with you. ⁓ but it’s not a matter of a housing shorty. It’s a money shortage. ⁓
What they’re not taking into effect is the cost. Like I said, the costs have gone so high that a basic family can’t buy a home. Now investors, that’s a whole nother story
Dylan Silver (06:47)
Yeah.
Jon Puls (06:51)
you know, because investing and buying is two completely different levels. and
Dylan Silver (06:56)
Now,
I know that you’ve had experience in the single family space and then also in small multifamily with a quadplex. You were talking before the show. For investors, especially new investors, I’ve heard this repeatedly, not just from investors, but also from lenders that, you know, one of the ways where folks can get into some of these properties potentially is through looking at small multifamily because those additional doors can be counted really as income for the property.
Jon Puls (07:24)
Right.
Dylan Silver (07:26)
Is that, are you seeing like lots of small multifamily out there or is that less common?
Jon Puls (07:31)
Well, it’s less common, but the ones that are here are great investments because of what you just said. ⁓ Having the chance to have that as an income to add to the property is a game changer, and ⁓ especially for veterans. mean, that’s like the number one way to get into this business for veterans is to buy a small fourplex and start by living in one of the units, because then they also get it on a VA loan.
So as long as it’s a fourplex or smaller in the state of Wyoming, it’s considered residential. Anything over fourplex of apartments is considered commercial.
Dylan Silver (08:00)
Yeah.
Yeah, I mean, that’s a great point, right? So if you would need to show maybe additional income for not necessarily substantially more than a single family home, you’re adding income, especially if you’re going to the right lender. You mentioned a VA loan. And one of the things that I’ve seen is people still need to qualify, right? So you still need to have the income there. So having those additional doors can definitely help with that.
Now, for folks who may be outside of Cheyenne and outside of Wyoming and looking at investing, is there a contingency of out-of-state investors? Have you seen that? Or most of the people who own over there from Wyoming?
Jon Puls (08:48)
We have seen a lot of out of state investors, a lot of Colorado and a lot of California investors coming in, a lot of people that are selling their homes in California are moving here because of the tax rate, for one. We don’t have a state tax. And ⁓ the other thing is that their money coming from California is exponential compared to our incomes here. hence, again, the reason for the drive up in prices, because they’re willing to pay and it’s still change out of their pocketwares for people that are here already investing.
It’s a struggle.
Dylan Silver (09:20)
You know, when we talk specifically kind of about that arbitrage of real estate and dollars, I mean, I’m a Texas licensed realtor, so I’ve seen it firsthand, right? You see people selling their home in, you know, one point two, one point six million dollar home, and then you can buy four homes to the price of that in markets in Texas. New homes in many cases, too. And so, you know, what this ends up doing is it drives, yes, the real estate markets up. And it also, you know, really puts an onus on developers to
Jon Puls (09:37)
Right.
Dylan Silver (09:49)
create more housing. we’ve seen it in Texas on the ground up construction side and that has spilled over into like how it impacts fix and flippers and folks who are trying to do some type of rehab because if you’re trying to do a fix and flip for $240,000 and there’s a brand new, you know, home that’s being sold for the same amount at a lower rate, it’s challenging to compete with that.
I do want to pivot a bit here though, Jon, and ask you about a different side of the business, which
I imagine it’s gotta be pretty big out there, which is tourism and short-term rentals. ⁓ Without knowing too much about it, that’s gotta be a big deal out there.
Jon Puls (10:58)
So.
Well, and I’ve dabbled in that because I’ve got friends here that also own other properties that own Airbnbs and things like that. The thing about Cheyenne and that’s the reason that you want to have Airbnbs here, A, the Air Force. We have a regional hospital, so you want to, got a lot of travel nurses. It really supports the AirBnB side of that. You know, if you’re doing things like that, ⁓ you definitely make the more money on the AirBnB side than you do in long-term rental.
It’s a little faster, you know, cause you’re doing furnished product. You’re not moving furniture in and out, having to do repairs all the time. You know, it’s more of a just, just come, go, stay and leave kind of thing. But also, ⁓ with the air force and things like that, but not only that we have, ⁓ Cheyenne frontier days. So Cheyenne frontier days, the largest outdoor rodeo in the world and the oldest. So, or the, the oldest outdoor rodeo in the world.
Dylan Silver (11:55)
Wow.
Jon Puls (12:00)
So ⁓ Cheyenne Frontier Days, it’s over 100 years old and we get, our population literally doubles to triple some years. So the turnover in that one week can almost finance some places for like three months.
Dylan Silver (12:10)
Oof.
You’re not the first person to tell me this about these short term rentals. You know, I’ve heard ⁓ for specific events, frontier days, right? But people might have, you know, a spring break or like in California, the the Olympics, not the Olympics, the World Cup is coming to Los Angeles, if I’m not mistaken. And so people are like planning, you know, hey, we’re going to have this Airbnb during this time period. And you can surcharge this tremendously because people are willing to pay for convenience and proximity.
Jon Puls (12:47)
absolutely. Absolutely. The friend that I have that currently rents her space is in historic downtown. So they’re not only getting that, that, that stay at the right place they want the convenience of being right next to all the events and the parades. So, so her place tends to get a little extra because it’s right on the path of everything happening. So you’re right with the surcharges, you know, I mean, it just, it can build and build and per each person, there’s always a little more, you know,
Dylan Silver (13:10)
I wanna-
want to ask you, pivoting a bit here, want to ask you specifically about ⁓ acquisitions and finding these deals in the Cheyenne market. ⁓ If folks maybe are not familiar with it, but maybe looking at investing in Wyoming, or they may be moving to Cheyenne, would you recommend if they’re looking for an investment property specifically, would you recommend any one specific acquisition strategy, whether that’s working with a realtor or foreclosures or, you know, distressed sellers, so on and so forth?
Jon Puls (13:47)
Well, specifically, I would always start with a realtor because they’re going to have the end on most of the places anyway. The other thing too is Cheyenne’s not big. You can get across it in like 15, 20 minutes in any direction. So what I would suggest is go through your realtor when it comes to acquisition stuff, get to know the community a little bit, ask around. People here are very friendly and open. They’re always willing to talk and BS.
hit your coffee shops, cause you always find an end somewhere. ⁓ But if you’re willing to talk to people, a lot of people just want to, you know, there’s, they’ll, they’ll be like, yeah, this house up the road has been abandoned or this building over here has got a property and it’s been up for sale for six months, but you don’t always find it on the listing. So sometimes, sometimes the community is the best way to go. Just ask around, you know, ⁓
Dylan Silver (14:35)
Right.
Jon Puls (14:40)
When it comes to getting the owner financing thing, you got to kind of be in the know, you you got to know the person or know the people, know the thing. But the best way to go for an investor just coming into Cheyenne is just to drive around, get with a realtor, look at the communities. ⁓ Also look at the the go to the city department and pull up anything that’s been labeled abandoned or or construction or anything that’s on the tax list.
They owe taxes, that’s a great way to acquire a property.
Dylan Silver (15:55)
Yeah, no question. mean, I’ve done all of those. And one of the things that I think ⁓ is very popular right now, and you touched on it there briefly, is seller financing or owner financing and people making those types of offers. I can speak for Texas. I can’t speak for Wyoming, but I can speak for Texas. When you are a seller and your home is sitting on market and you’re having your realtor tell you, hey, we’ve got to drop price and you don’t want to drop the price.
What are your options? can stop, pause the listing, you can cancel the listing, you can rent the place out, or you could consider some type of seller financing and then in many cases get that final top dollar amount that you want but broken down over time. So I think there’s more interest right now from sellers maybe potentially than previously in seller financing.
Jon Puls (16:26)
Right.
Right. Yeah. And I agree with that 100%. ⁓ The seller financing side of it is, I don’t know, it’s tough here.
Dylan Silver (16:59)
Yeah, I mean you do have
Jon Puls (17:00)
Sorry, the pro’s up there
for a second on my end.
Dylan Silver (17:03)
Can you see me now? Can you hear me now? All right. Yeah, I mean, for sure, whenever people are coming to me, I mean, I mentioned to you before the show here, I’ve had people come to me asking me, hey, can you make a seller finance offer on, you know, a brick and mortar business, like a laundromat? I’ve had people ask me, small multifamily, single family, a gas station even. ⁓ But when it comes to…
Jon Puls (17:04)
I got you, I got you.
Dylan Silver (17:28)
how this ties into like the cyclical nature of real estate. I was talking to a guy earlier today actually who was making seller finance offers in the early 80s on properties in New York. So this isn’t necessarily like some some new strategy, but this idea of owner to owner financing it without banks involved, I think comes into play when you have maybe properties that aren’t generating the type of interest that sellers like. We are actually though coming up on time here though, Jon.
Any new projects that you’re working on. And then also too, what’s the best way for our audience to get in contact with you?
Jon Puls (18:03)
Well, I got a fourplex that I’m working on that I invested in on an owner finance deal, just like we were talking about is through established management properties. And of course you can see behind me, it’s always work involved, always work involved. I just redid the plumbing in this building myself, but ⁓ if you get a chance, come to Cheyenne, check out the local stuff. It’s definitely worth a look around. Hit me up. I’m always available to talk and have coffee and tell people what’s where.
or where to go with it. If you get a chance, I also run an event company, EMP 2020. It’s events marketing promoting 2020. If you go on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, TikTok, all those, we’re on all those under Jon Puls and EMP. But I do appreciate the opportunity to be on the podcast.
Dylan Silver (18:52)
Thank you so much for your time today. Thanks for coming on the show.
Jon Puls (18:55)
Yes, sir.
